September 2, 2016

Arbutus Greenway: What's Up?

Had a chance to cycle the Arbutus Greenway from 41st Avenue to Cypress.  As reported, the paving project to provide a temporary hard surface on the old rail right-of-way is on hold – but, one presumes, not permanently.
As the weather changes, the need to hard-surface the route will become abundantly apparent.
Arb Green (1) (Large)
The downhill stretch from 36th to 33rd Avenue is somewhat a challenge for experienced cyclists: loose, rutted and not something you’d want to fall on.  But for most of the unpaved, there was not another person to be seen, whether on wheel or foot.
On the other hand …
Arb Green (3) (Large)
… the paved stretch in the 20s was a pleasure – and there were people there enjoying it.
There hasn’t been an update from the City – and no indication as to whether the rest of the route will be resurfaced by winter.  At a minimum the multiple street crossings in the teens need to be addressed: ambiguous, awkward and unacceptable.
IMG_9361 (Large)
So, anyone know what’s happening?

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  1. When I cycled down Nanton there yesterday, there was a city crew removing the rails from the road in the crossing. When I cycled down there today, the work was complete with fresh blacktop 🙂

  2. I find it weird the COV is not publishing what it is doing currently. I hope they are not just talking with that few vocal minority who complained about pavement.

  3. I understand that rails left in cross roads are being addressed. Where they have clearance to dig, they can be removed. Where there are complications to excavating, they can place asphalt over the rails to remediate the crash hazard. Trail should be built the whole distance, with paving of the temporary path dependent on consultation. Heard that might be in September. Lots of interest has been expressed in seeing the paving completed.

  4. I love the fact that at least one individual took initiative to use the black top as a chalk board to indicate what s/he would like to see along the greenway.
    Alas, it isn’t permanent and the recent rain probably washed it away, but I hope that the City takes note, and is willing to incorporate this sort of technique into their consultation process.

    1. Well, the city aren’t mind readers and (thankfully) don’t have cameras on every pole to be able to know that someone wrote an idea in chalk. What this person needs to do is email them or hang on to the idea until the consultation.
      The Railway Avenue greenway in Richmond has a type of mural on the asphalt in remembrance of the old tram stops.

      1. The beauty of the chalk suggestions is that they aren’t a message to the city – they’re a message to everyone to uses the greenway. It’s a brilliant way to stimulate public involvement in the process.

  5. I am sure that if I attempted to stop a road project by sitting in front of machinery, I would be thrown in jail. When a creme de la creme tries to stop an active transportation project, she gets the royal treatment and an expensive and totally unnecessary consultation process.
    My understanding is that the consultation process for the temporary path will happen some time around mid September.

  6. I’ve already bailed on the gravel cycling south between 33rd and 37th because of the ruts. The gravel there was never meant for people ride on, it was in preparation of being paved. It’s just going to get worse with more rain.
    I love that 30 blocks of it doesn’t have any improvements, and because a small localized group has ruined it for the rest of us, 41st to 70th won’t see anything for a long time. 🙁

  7. Given that almost all other non-paved paths in the city don’t have loose gravel strewn on them like that, makes you think the city deliberately made the non-paved sections as terrible as possible, so that everyone would give up and ask for them to be paved.
    Or maybe it’s just my tin-foil hat has gone missing…

  8. This is very clearly a partisan space in support of the “bike freeway” position on all things path related, so pardon me for sharing another view, but I will.
    It’s a cheap and baseless dig to characterize opposition to the paving as the “creme de la creme”. That kind of comment speaks more to your prejudice than it does a desire for thoughtful discussion and appreciation for a point of view which is not your own, so how about we try here to avoid these kind of assertions and instead discuss the issues.
    People were upset about the paving because it seemed wholly inconsistent with the promise to discuss and listen to the people about how to treat the “greenway”. It was called a greenway and references were made to the NY Highline, which is not paved and not a fast bike route, but a leisurely stroll with amazing views. The Arbutus Greenway will never be the Highline because it’s not in NY, it runs along Arbutus. Very different experience, although I should think that does not need to be said. The term “greenway” even implies a more rustic, nature based experience. At least to me.
    The previous use of the AB was more rustic and characterful. The feeling from many was that some of that character would be retained in creating the new user experience. Perhaps a kind of Pacific Spirit Park approach with green and a natural feel. On the other hand, biking proponents feel that the logical approach is to make it as clean and efficient a bike path as possible, so that means asphalt. No time for dirt getting on tires or gears.
    Other bikers, like myself, really enjoy the more leisurely pace of a path much like the one at Kits Point or Jericho Beach or Pacific Spirit Park. If your goal is to make an active transportation corridor to get from A to B, then clearly asphalt is the way to go, but it’s clear that there are many who did not see the “greenway” in those terms.
    So why the upset about the asphalt, which was called “temporary”? Because it felt like a very surprising move given the plan to consult and listen. Also, given the cities spotty reputation with listening, it felt like a decision had been made. In my opinion, people were rightly offended by this move.
    I have my views about how the greenway should look and feel, but honestly, If there is true, broad consultation and it is felt that it should be primarily a bike commuter path rather than a more nature based stroll more reminiscent of the way it was, then so be it, but it seems reasonable to hear from the public before paving it. And in the mean time, I hope we can avoid characterizing people with baseless insults about their interests, financial well being or proximity to Arbutus.

    1. The paths at Jerichco are really ugly with the gravel ending up all over the place and dust from the gravel covering everything. A great example of why paving is better from every point of view.
      Yes, new asphalt is rather jarring but it quickly fades and becomes grey, basically the same colour as a gravel path.

      1. See, that’s subjective. You don’t like it, but I do and I know others who do as well, so it’s a matter of opinion in terms of aesthetics. I like the idea of keeping the feel of Arbutus a little more rustic, if it is too be more about the experience than just getting from A to B. New York High Line is not asphalt. Would you have done this extremely successful “greenway” with asphalt?

        1. New York’s High Line is a great example of a new route through the city that became incredibly popular as a recreational route. It’s not directly comparable to a greenway because the bylaws don’t permit bicycles, or walking on the gravel. The pedestrian path is paved, much of it with smooth stone slabs that look like the renewed Granville Street sidewalks.

        2. Right, so in that sense, entirely different if bikes are not even allowed, yet the city likes to compare Arbutus to the Highline for some reason.

        3. Ok, I’ll bite with something that isn’t subjective about the Jericho paths, they end up collecting significant amounts of water, and because its often a bad idea to ride through something where you can’t see the bottom, the result is that both walkers and bikers have to squeeze around these large puddles (which often extend most of the width of the path). Gravel paths are hard to keep graded properly, and without frequent maintenance, end up being less accessible, and more hazardous, than a surface that is trustworthy along its whole length and breadth.

        4. No doubt, if you want the most efficient path, paving does the job best, but I think many would be upset by the paving of Jericho. I know I would be. So there is clearly a point of view towards a balance of efficiency and aesthetic. I like the more rural feeling of the beach and would hate it if it was paved. I remain on the fence about Arbutus depending on the goals of the exercise. I have no objection to paving Arbutus if that’s the desire of the community. I can see both points of view.

        5. I agree, it is nice visually to have the gravel, and I’m sure some happy medium could be figured out that would balance both the visual and the useful. (asphalt doesn’t always have to be black, and other materials certainly have a more ‘natural’ feel to them, for instance)
          The path currently is not ‘accessible’ in that many will choose not to use it because of the surface. Insomuch as the only alternative is to use 4th ave, there isn’t a properly safe alternative that doesn’t involve playing with traffic, its also a healthy detour.
          The whole ‘pave’ vs ‘grave’ argument presents both as strawmen – I think most would agree that neither is ultimately desirable, but because the issue has no grey, there is no position in the middle.
          Personally, I think loose-laying some bricks in the manner they do on the very accessible dutch paths would be good – and if things need to change later, they can be pulled up, moved and re-used as needed … but this isn’t an option it seems. Right now, the options are the one which is accessible, and the one that really isn’t … and between the two, I will choose the equitable one every time.

        6. David writes:
          ” I like the more rural feeling of the beach and would hate it if it (the path) was paved”
          I did a quick calculation of pavement already in Jericho Park and counted only roads and parking lots. This claims a total of 2.5 hectres out of a total park space of 46 hectares which is over 5% of the park. Paving the path would only add another 0.33 hectares of pavement. If people are worried about increasing pavement to parks, we could easily transform some of the parking space to green space.
          Spanish Banks is much worse. It reminds me of a suburban mall which is surrounded by surface parking. Parking takes up 2 hectares out of a total park space of 6.54 hectares or over 30% of the entire park space. And it is totally free which means that we all pay for it. Rural indeed. Paving a bike path would only add .64 hectares of pavement.
          Some people are so fixated on paved paths that they forget about all the pavement that is already in place in support motordom. So much for that rural feeling.
          I thought that the mandate of the Parks Board was to provide recreational opportunities as well as green space. Wouldn’t improved cycling paths do more to support their mandate than all this free parking?

        7. Arno’s pavement calculations are really not relevant to the point here because it’s not about how much percentage of the area has paving already. We don’t use the parking lot at Spanish Banks for recreation, we use it to park a car and then leave to enjoy the surroundings. The bike path is something we use as part of the experience at the beach and park.
          Providing parking is essential so that people of all ages and mobility, or people with gear that needs to be transported, can reach the beach. If you have a hard time enjoying the rural or natural feeling of Spanish Banks because of the parking lot behind you and largely out of site once you are on the beach, well, that’s just unfortunate for you.
          Moreover, I’m baffled by some views here which feel that paving is essential to enjoy cycling. That’s like saying paving is essential to enjoy walking or any other activity. Clearly many really enjoy walking on surfaces which are not perfect and that goes for cycling too. It’s just a nice aesthetic, even if I end up with some sand or dirt on my shoes or tires.

      2. The unpaved Jericho path is unsuitable for year round biking. It is ok in summer, but can destroy your brakes, wheels and drivetrain in winter. I have had to stop at the sailing club to rinse my bike because the brakes were coated in crushed rock.
        Not paving paths may work for biking in drier climates, but not with the heavy winter rains in Vancouver. The water can’t drain fast enough and the surface becomes soft. Any unevenness in the path surface becomes a puddle. When the temperature dips below zero the soaked Jericho path resembles thawed permafrost.

  9. Dear James,
    Thank you for your interest in the development of the Arbutus Greenway project.
    The Arbutus Greenway is a future north-south transportation corridor that will connect False Creek to the Fraser River.
    In the short term, City of Vancouver is building a temporary pathway that everyone can enjoy. We’re looking at several different types of hard-surface materials, especially those that improve safety and accessibility.
    Come to a public workshop and share your thoughts on the temporary pathway options:
    Saturday, September 17, at the False Creek Community Centre between 1-3pm.
    Wednesday, September 21, at the Coast Vancouver Airport Hotel between 7-9pm.
    Thursday, September 22, at the Kerrisdale Community Centre between 7-9pm.
    These meetings are public but space is limited. If you plan to attend a workshop, please RSVP at arbutus-greenway.eventbrite.ca. The same material will be covered at each session.
    A broader public engagement process for the Arbutus Greenway is expected to kick-off in late Fall 2016.
    We hope you will continue to follow the project and be part of the process.
    Thank you,
    Arbutus Greenway Project Office
    City of Vancouver

    1. P.S. Remember that all decisions have already been made. The city has been directed by council to follow instructions from favoured groups and individuals. As per usual all consultations are merely to allow any disgruntled f***ing NPA flacks to vent. Do not let this deter you from attending any or all of the consultation events because the more people that come the more the city can say it did consult. We do keep numbers.
      Sincerely.

      1. Yeah but everybody says that when things don’t turn out exactly as their individual tastes.
        I’ve been to open houses where an entirely new idea was brought up by someone and then at the next iteration the idea had been incorporated into the design. If it had been already figured out beforehand then that wouldn’t have happened.

      2. It’s easy to see that Eric has never organized a public open house designed to garner opinion on concepts, or to develop concepts as a citizen in city-sponsored workshops, only to be accused of having everything set in stone well in advance.
        That is called mythmaking.

      3. Consultations often modify existing designs and sometimes produce entirely new designs, but the city employs professionals to come up with ideas that will work best for the vast majority of citizens and sometimes their ideas really are the best.
        Some people confuse “lack of consultation” with “not getting things my way”.

        1. And sometimes consultation is an empty gesture so that the city can appear to have consulted, or they don’t consult at all, as was the case with the Kits Beach bike path and the Burrard Bridge suicide railings. Unfortunately, the city has earned it’s reputation.

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